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How to Build Orion

Season 1Episode 227Jan 14, 2022

Ned Penley and Stu McClung describe the manufacturing process of the Orion spacecraft that is being used for upcoming Artemis missions. HWHAP Episode 227.

Houston We Have a Podcast Ep 227 How to Build Orion

Houston We Have a Podcast Ep 227 How To Build Orion

From Earth orbit to the Moon and Mars, explore the world of human spaceflight with NASA each week on the official podcast of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. Listen to in-depth conversations with the astronauts, scientists and engineers who make it possible.

On Episode 227, Ned Penley and Stu McClung describe the manufacturing process of the Orion spacecraft that is being used for upcoming Artemis missions. This episode was recorded on December 9, 2021.

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Transcript

Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, we have a podcast! Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 227, “How to Build Orion.” I’m Gary Jordan, and I’ll be your host today. On this podcast, we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, and astronauts, all to let you know what’s going on in the world of human spaceflight. We’ve discussed NASA’s Artemis program, the one that’s returning humans to the Moon as a sustainable program. Part of making this possible is thinking ahead. So when we talk about gearing up for Artemis I, we have a lot of people focused on Artemis II, and even III. On this episode, we’re going to talk about some of that planning, namely with the Orion spacecraft, the part that humans will live and work in during those first Artemis missions. Specifically, we’re going to start from the ground up on how Orion spacecraft are manufactured for Artemis missions, and where four of those spacecraft are today. To discuss this, we’re bringing in Ned Penley, who was the manager of the Orion program’s Planning and Control Office when we recorded this and has since been promoted to the deputy associate administrator for management for the Exploration Systems Development and Space Operations Mission Directorates. We’re also bringing in Stu McClung, the chief of staff of the Orion program’s Planning and Control Office. So let’s get right into it, and learn what it takes to build Orion. Enjoy.

[ Music]

Host: Ned and Stu! Thank you so much for coming on Houston We Have a Podcast today.

Ned Penley: Happy to be here.

Stu McClung: Yes, thanks. Looking forward to having the discussion with you. It should be fun.

Host: How to build Orion. That’s what we’re going to be talking about today. Both of you are — maybe one of the ways that we can describe your jobs is very intricate project management, making sure that an Orion is built all across the country and that it meets the right qualifications. You have all the relationships. So that’s what we’re going to dive into today. I hope I’m describing your jobs correctly, though. But instead of me doing it, I’ll toss it over to you. Ned, we’ll start with you. In terms of your role as the manager of Orion program planning and control, what exactly does that mean? What exactly do you oversee?

Ned Penley: Yes, that’s a good question. Thank you. It’s funny, a lot of people ask me that, you know, what is program planning and control? It’s not a usual title. My job is best related as, I manage the business office. So I manage the, the budgets and the schedule and something called configuration management. That’s kind of making sure that the, the paperwork is, is in line, and that we can actually describe what it is we have built and that we all know exactly what it is that is built, and a few other things: export control, just making sure that the data is controlled in a secure way. And that’s, that’s, pretty much covers it.

Host: Alright. And Stu, you’re also in the same office. Now what is, what is your role?

Stu McClung: Yeah, I’m really Ned’s chief of staff. So I work, I do whatever Ned tells me to do, or at least I pretend to. So I’m an engineer, I’ve been on the program a number of years, I’m an engineer by background, and so I bring an engineer’s point of view to Ned’s office. And I have a lot of, my focuses are on what kind of risks and threats are coming that the program might have to deal with, that the finance side will need to adjust to, and so I kind of reach across to other offices within the organization and try to smooth out and make sure that the technical content of developing this vehicle and building this vehicle are, are kind of in sync with the financial aspect that Ned has to manage.

Host: Making the whole thing work. A very, very important job. But we’re talking about Orion here, and I want to set some context for our listeners on exactly what that is. So Ned, if you had to give a brief overview on just what this is, what you’re talking about, this program that you’re overseeing and make work, what is Orion?

Ned Penley: Sure. So the Orion is, is the nation’s next exploration spacecraft. We’ll take humans further than humans have ever gone in space: around the Moon and to the lander that is going to land a woman on the Moon and a person of color on the Moon. The Orion spacecraft itself is really three different pieces. It’s a capsule, where the crew members ride in, it’s the propulsion system, the thing that rides on the back of the capsule, kind of pushes it around the Moon, and then it’s the launch abort system, which is kind of the ejection seat, if you will, like an aircraft — if there’s something that’s untoward that happens, the launch abort system can pull the capsule to safety.

Host: So a lot of different components. Now, what is the overall mission, Ned, when you’re talking about here’s this vehicle, here’s what it’s going to do, what exactly is the purpose of Orion as part of this overall, overall structure here?

Ned Penley: Yeah, good. The Orion is part of the Artemis, overall Artemis program, and the Artemis is, will again, take the first woman and a person of color to, to the Moon. So the Orion spacecraft itself is really the transportation of the humans from the Earth to the Moon. It goes from the launch pad, it rides on the top of the, the giant SLS (Space Launch System) rocket. And then, we’ll take the crew all the way to orbit the Moon, and then dock with the lander. And a couple of folks from the Orion capsule will get into the lander, go down to the Moon, do their work, come back to the Orion and then Orion provides that transportation back from the Moon to the Earth.

Host: So that’s a pretty important job, and there’s a lot of things going through my head on what exactly are all of the components to actually make that Orion, that space capsule, do what it’s supposed to do. And there has to be a lot of different elements, because today’s topic is building Orion. And so, there’s a lot of pieces that have to come together to make this work. So Stu, if you were looking specifically at the Orion vehicle, and now getting into the discussion of building Orion, what are some of those components that are being brought into the capsule to construct this vehicle?

Stu McClung: Great question. And it’s interesting, as a very complex vehicle with a lot of different parts. And so, the build process and the construction process is interesting. It starts, you know, it starts really early on when we get, like Ned gave you the overview of what the mission is, right, the mission gets defined and that definition gets broken down a little bit further for each of the various systems because I, you know, we said alright, we’re going to carry four astronauts out to the vicinity of the Moon and back, right, that’s my mission requirement. And then I start looking at, alright, I need structure to do that. I need computers, avionics, I need communication systems, power systems. And the different scientists and engineers, right, we kind of, that process starts with them, either starting on a blank piece of paper, or starting with code, starting with, you know, a CAD (computer-aided design) system, and they start to build and design those components, right? And we get that initial “what are my requirements” and we lay that out, and we turn them on and say, let’s go build something. So that’s kind of, that’s the first domino in the process.

Host: So, so Ned, what are those, what are those checkpoints at each of those dominoes? So if you have your components, what are the things that you’re doing along the way to make sure that you’re not missing a step to make sure you’re getting all of the different requirements that you need, whether it’s components, whether it’s verification, whether it’s testing? What are those key, key points in constructing Orion?

Ned Penley: Yeah, good. You know, NASA has learned over the years that they have to have these checkpoints where, you know, you’ve got groups of engineers are doing their thing, they’re making assumptions, they’re meeting their requirements, they’re up for their little piece. And then you have to kind of bring all that together, bring the whole team together and say, OK, are we, are we on track, and are you guys, you know, over here building whatever their system, is it going to interface with the other systems correctly? And we call those design reviews. Preliminary Design Review is a typical one that you have a little bit early on, and then Critical Design Review: Critical Design Review is when most of your drawings are finished and stuff, and it’s sort of, I’ll call it the last check, if you will, to say, OK, are we ready to actually go build this, and, you know, cut metal and stitch all this stuff together? So, PDR, Preliminary Design Review, and CDR, Criterial Design Review, those are some key design points where we get the whole team together, and make sure, you know, just double check, if you will, that we’re on track. So we had our Critical Design Review in 2015; said are we ready to go, we decided we were ready, and started stitching this thing all together, and now we have a vehicle stacked in the Kennedy Space Center and it’s getting ready to go.

Stu McClung: One of the things, the way I like to visualize is sometimes if you think about, think about an orchestra, right, and you’ve got a percussion system, you’ve got violins, and you’ve got the cellos, and you name it, right? And all of these experts are experts on, on that instrument, right? And at these checkpoints coming together, and it’s like, alright, we’re going to play as a team, we’re going to have this integrated, beautiful music. I mean, really, that’s kind of, for somebody that doesn’t build complex vehicles, I like to think of it that way, because it’s a way you can visualize it.

Host: Yeah, yeah, nice little comparison: every, every instrument in an orchestra is critical to making it sound the way it’s supposed to sound. Otherwise, you have an incomplete piece. A very, very interesting — comparison, for sure. Stu, to build off of that, to build off of Ned’s comments, let’s start with, you said, I think it was, from what Ned said, I think CDR was in 2015, then you talked about cutting metal and those sorts of things, and building it until it’s stacked. That’s, a lot has happened in that timeframe, right, from the time that you passed that Critical Design Review to the time that it is now stacked on top of a rocket? A brief overview of just some of the things that were accomplished in that time to, to make that possible, to go from constructing, making sure you had all of those different components, to saying this is ready to go on top of a rocket.

Stu McClung: Yeah. Great, great question. You know, and so along the way, we’ve had a couple of some major tests. We flew EFT (Exploration Flight Test)-1 back in December of 2014, and, right, that was, we basically built an early version of the vehicle and ran a test, really good successful test flight, and proved out sort of at on an interim basis what, the design was meeting our expectations, right? And then we flew Ascent Abort-2 back in July of 2019 to specifically look at the launch abort system. And so, we’ve had a couple of those test flights, which are a different type of a checkpoint, right? Sort of a dry run and a rehearsal. And now, really, leading up to Artemis I, which will happen in the spring, which is really our next big test flight, we’re going to prove to ourselves that the testing that we’ve done on the ground, the analysis that the engineers have done along the way, that when it’s all stitched together the vehicle’s going to operate the way we expect it to operate, right? We’ve got a lot of test objectives that we intend to exercise and meet when we fly.

Host: Very critical step to build Orion is to verify that once you put it together it’s going to work, and those tests seem to be a very critical part. Now the parts themselves, Stu, an overview of some of those parts, right, because you’re procuring them from all over — you know, where are the solar arrays coming from, where are they pyros coming from, where are the avionics coming from — to actually bring it together and get to a point where you’re ready to test it.

Stu McClung: Oh, yeah. Great question. It’s interesting, one of the things in my past, I’ve worked on some of that hardware, and this is not, it’s a U.S.-effort: there’s vendors all across the country, suppliers all across the country, and we’re partnered with ESA (European Space Agency). They provide the service module. And so, there’s actually hardware coming in from Europe. And so, it kind of depends on what you’re looking at. Let me start with avionics, right, the computers and the other avionics that, you know, provide the command and control of the vehicle, come from a handful of vendors across the country. You know, Lockheed Martin is our prime contractor, and Honeywell is one of their major subcontractors. And so, you’ve got teams, they’ve got teams in Florida, they’ve got teams in Arizona that are building up the hardware. Solar arrays, that’s another good one because that one’s a nice, complicated — they’re not complicated, they’re complex — the actual solar cells are built by a company here in the U.S. We ship them over to the Netherlands, to RUAG, which is one of the suppliers in the ESA supply chain; they assembly the solar array itself, and get it built up, it then goes to Bremen in Germany, where Airbus and ESA assemble the vehicle for some testing. It gets tested with the vehicle there, then it actually gets shipped separate from the service module, along with the service module, back to Florida for all the final assembly and testing of the vehicle, alright? So the solar arrays come from parts all over the place. I’ve – you mentioned pyros as well. Pyrotechnic vendors, we’ve got some on the West Coast, got some in the Northeast; in fact, the fairings, the flanges that we use to separate the fairings as we climb uphill, the, the structure of the fairing is built in Minnesota. The fairing is — the frangible assembly is built up in Connecticut, they are then shipped to our facility in New Orleans where the fairing is finally assembled, and that goes to Florida. You know, there’s parts trucking and flying all across the country that all end up coming together as we build the vehicle down at our assembly facility at Kennedy Space Center.

Host: And Stu, that’s something I find incredibly fascinating, just how many, how many commercial and international partners are involved to make this work. And Ned, Stu mentioned the partnership with ESA, and it seems like there’s, you know, that we have that partnership with the service module, we also have, we’re sending them over with different contractors over in, in Europe; that has to be, you know — talk about the relationship with — because we’re talking about the Orion capsule, the service module is a critical component, how does that relationship work, and making sure that all requirements are met to, to make this mission possible?

Ned Penley: Yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s really cool. So this is more than just a U.S. spacecraft. This is an international cooperative to build this spacecraft, as Stu mentioned. And you know, NASA has a history of cooperating with other countries. You know, the International Space Station was built with a cooperative — ESA, Canada, Russia. And the cool part about this is there is a linkage there. So the agreements that we had set up for the International Space Station, we actually leveraged some of those agreements. There was some, some, some cost that was owed from ESA to the U.S., and we said, hey why don’t you build the, the service module, the propulsion piece of the Orion spacecraft, and they had the capability of doing that; that offset their cost. So it was actually a win-win for everybody. And we wound up striking this agreement, and so it’s just an extension, if you will, of the cooperative that we have as an agency, as a country, with other countries to get this done. I think it’s pretty cool the way that that has worked out. You know, everybody, everybody has a piece of it.

Host: Everybody has a piece, and we’re all trying to contribute to, to enabling human missions to the Moon. That’s what we talked about in the very, in the very beginning. So let’s get into the missions, and just how building Orion is contributing to the missions themselves. Stu, I’ll pass it over to you, because what Ned said before was that it’s stacked, it’s in Florida now — and that is for the purpose of stacking that vehicle on top is for the Artemis I mission. Now what are the objectives of the Artemis I mission? Why did we build this Orion to fly, to fly Artemis I?

Stu McClung: Excellent question; thanks. Yes, I mean, I’d like to sort of think of Artemis I as my — not my; our, right? — our last really big test drive, if you want to think of it as a vehicle, right, before we go put the crew in there, right? The crew’s in a sense, the crew’s my final stakeholder and customer, right? And this is our chance, our opportunity, again, to prove to ourselves that this vehicle will operate and behave the way we expect it to. And so we understand the risks appropriately to go and then put crew in it on Artemis II. You know, we have a mission stacked full of flight test objectives, everything from, you know, verifying that the communications system works as smoothly as we expect, able to uplink commands; you know, we touched on solar arrays earlier, we’ve got predicted performance on how much power the solar arrays will generate, and how much power the vehicle will use. And now we’re, you know, the orchestra’s together, and we’ll prove that in an integrated system, right? We’ll look at that. The cooling system, the same thing. We’ll look at how the vehicle cooling system works and maintains temperatures in the cabin and across the different parts of the structure. The propulsion system we’ll get to operate. We’ve tested the propulsion system heavily on the ground, and in labs, and now this will be the full-up system test. And then one of the really key objectives happens right at the end: we’ll get a good test of our heat shield. This is really the biggest heat shield for a human capsule that’s built, right? We’re about a 16-foot diameter vehicle. And you come back from a lunar re-entry you’re traveling at extremely high rates of speed; we’ve tested in the lab, we’ve tested in the arcjet, we’ve analyzed. We had an earlier test on EFT-1 that was at a lower speed and lower energy; this gives us a lunar re-entry velocity to verify that the heat shield design is ready to go and ready to give the crew a good, safe mission and return. So it’s all of that sort of stuff all stitched together. And we’ll launch, do a quick orbit in low-Earth orbit, get the solar arrays out, get the early system checkout, and then head out towards the Moon.

Host: So Ned, building onto Stu’s summary of Artemis I, and the objectives, and thinking about from the production aspect here, just what went into the design and build of Artemis I, let’s compare that to Artemis II and the objectives of that, of that mission. After we complete this one next year, or I guess by the time this podcast released this year, 2022, how will that, how will the Artemis II objectives compare, and then building onto that, how does that change in the production of Orion, meaning, what has been added to that vehicle to add on to new test objectives?

Ned Penley: Yeah. Sure. Well, let’s see. As Stu described, you know, the Artemis I is really a test of the systems of the spacecraft in making sure that the spacecraft systems all work, work together. One thing that we don’t have on Artemis I is crew. We’re flying it uncrewed. We want to test that heat shield before we put crew on it, make sure that all that works as designed. And so, then Artemis II then becomes really the first opportunity to put crew on the spacecraft. So we are finishing the, we call it the ECLSS system, the Environmental Control and Life Support Systems. There’s some systems that we don’t need on Artemis I because there’s no crew, things that, that exactly support the crew, like for breathing and just living onboard. So we’re going to finish those and put those on the Artemis II spacecraft, and then we launch the crew and the big test there is to, to make sure that those things function as designed, and that the crew, we can safely deliver the crew to the Moon, or orbit the Moon, and then return.

Host: Very critical components to add to that spacecraft. And Stu, I’ll go real quickly to Artemis III for a second: any other changes and additions, or anything that you have to think about in terms of the production of that vehicle to get ready for new objectives for Artemis 3?

Stu McClung: There’s the biggest thing that’ll come in on Artemis III is we will add in our rendezvous and docking capability. As you know, we rendezvous and dock — not we — but there’s rendezvous and docking going on to space station in low-Earth orbit today. As we start building up the Gateway, Orion will end up, we’ll have the requirement to rendezvous and dock with the Gateway or with – with other vehicles that are in the lunar vicinity. And so, as we’ve been developing the vehicle and balancing out what we want to do on each mission, the next big addition to the Artemis III mission will be our docking system, rendezvous and docking system. That system’s being developed right now, leveraging off of a lot of past history that the agency has from docking to ISS, and developing those systems, testing them on the ground, and so we’ll bring that onboard. And then depending on, you know, we’ll fly Artemis, every time you fly, you learn something, right? And so, when we fly Artemis I in the spring, and if we learn something, if we see something in the performance that, the judgement is really needs to be blended into Artemis III, that’s part of our, that’s part of our whole design process, right? I’ll get an engineer that’ll come to Ned and say, hey, I saw this, and I really need to make this change, and then we’ll start the debate about, Ned’s going to ask how much it’s going to cost, because that’s one of his roles. And we’ll start that iterative process of, I learned this, is it important enough that I bring it on to Artemis III? Can I wait for Artemis IV, right? What’s the lead time for it? And so that whole iteration process. But the one big obvious addition to Artemis III will be rendezvous and docking with the elements of the Gateway program.

Host: Very, very important and very exciting. Seems like there’s modifications built along the way, based on things that we’re learning, which is very important. I think it’s also very exciting, Stu, that when we’re talking about some of these missions’ objectives, these missions are years away but we’re already planning for them right now, and in fact, we’re building Orion to enable them. And so, there’s Artemis I, II, III, and even I think early fabrication of Artemis IV. You guys are well-prepared, planning well in advance, to make these missions work. So take us through where each of these capsules are, from Artemis I through IV.

Stu McClung: OK. Yes, Artemis I, like Ned pointed out, Artemis I, we’re stacked, we’re on top of the SLS; in a sense, Artemis I, the Orion, is done. We’re ready to fly as soon as we finish the integrated testing with the SLS. We’re ready to go. Artemis II, both the crew module and the European service module are in the assembly facility, they’re down at Kennedy Space Center in the O&C (Operations and Checkout), going through their parallel processing and testing, and they’ll be brought together in a number of months, and then integrated together as we keep building out towards that next mission. The Artemis III pressure vessel was just finished at the Lockheed facility down near New Orleans at Michoud. It’s been delivered to Kennedy, and so we’ve got Artemis II and III vehicles in the same building, it’s just in different stages of production. And there are components coming in from all across the country, like I mentioned earlier, headed to Kennedy to start populating, you know, both the Artemis II and the Artemis III vehicles. And we’ve just — I’ve seen some early pictures of some of the primary structure being machined for the Artemis IV pressure vessel. Some of the, like, as you mentioned, right, some of these, there’s lead time. You’ve got to get in the queue with various suppliers. And so, we’ve got, you know, between structural elements either being forged or in machine shops, or I’m off buying connectors, one of us is off buying connectors or circuit cards for, you know, for a computer for the Artemis IV vehicle. But yes, so things are going. We got parts being fabbed all across, all across the globe to support this.

Ned Penley: Just to follow on, if I could just follow on, Stu —

Host: Yeah.

Ned Penley: — with that. You know, I was down at the Kennedy Space Center, so you know, it’s been a few weeks ago. And they took us over to the Vehicle Assembly Building where we see the rocket being stacked up. And there’s the Orion Artemis I vehicle, and then you go over to the O&C building, the Operations and Checkout building, that’s the building where we’re actually fabricating the other spacecraft, and you know, here’s Artemis II, and it’s all, you know, almost, you know, it really looks like a spacecraft. It, you know, just getting all put together, welded, and wires getting in, and all the avionic parts are getting in, and they’re working, it’s really starting to take shape as a spacecraft, you look at it and wow, that’s getting close. And then, here’s some Artemis III parts, and it just sent chills up my spine that, wow, this is really cool. It’s starting to be like a regular assembly, and I think that’s really cool. It’s kind of where we’re shooting for so where we can do this in a regular, consistent basis.

Host: Makes it real, right? You’re looking at the numbers, you’re on the phone, everything is remote, making sure all the pieces are flowing where they need to, but then when you actually see it in person, you know, all your work is there in a physical thing, and you’re looking at it, you’re looking at all the hard work that everyone put together, sounds like from all over, to make it happen. And it really takes a team, doesn’t it Ned? Like, when you’re working this, and when you see, see these vehicles, this is the result of working with — like you were mentioning earlier, working with international partners, working with contractors and suppliers from all over the globe, thinking about those relationships and maintaining those, you know, what has to really go into those relationships, and make sure the requirements are clear, so that you can get to a moment where you’re looking at these, the actual hardware, and you’re realizing all of the work being brought together into a final product. What is it like with the relationships with partners and contractors?

Ned Penley: Yeah. It’s pretty cool, you know. I was thinking about your comment made me think of, you know, the early stages, that PDR kind of stage, the Preliminary Design Review kind of stage, we’re looking at drawings, you know, requirements; how are you going to get your drawings done, and you know, when is all this going to get done, how are we going to get it all fashioned and stuff? And I remember looking at, you know, we call them burn-down curves that, that where you can show that you can get all those drawings done, and we have great debates about, you know, how fast we can do those things and stuff. And it’s pretty cool, looking back now and saying, wow, we did it. You know? Here’s a spacecraft that’s totally integrated, sitting on a rocket. That’s pretty cool, and as you mentioned, yeah, it takes everybody, you know? I mean, there’s parts suppliers throughout the states, and everybody’s got a little piece of that. They’re making this piece and then they send it off, and it goes down to Kennedy Space Center, we put it together. I think there’s a lot of the nation that really feels the ownership of this. It’s not just a NASA thing, it’s like there’s, there’s all the way down to mom and pop shops that are, you know, turning something on a lathe or something. I think that’s pretty cool that they send that part off and it gets integrated in, and off it goes. It’s part of Orion. It’s cool.

Host: We’re so close to actually flying this, too, and that’s just really the beginning as you guys were mentioning, especially for Artemis 1. This is really to just, I think Stu, you were the one that mentioned it’s like the final dress rehearsal, the final test run, to make sure that everything’s working before we start getting it ready to put humans on. And I know that’s a pretty big step, right, to go from, to go from that test to the next one, where humans are onboard. Both of you are mentioning that the Artemis II capsule is there in the Operations and Checkout building in, in Kennedy, but, and then Stu, I think it was you that was mentioning that, yes, we have some, we have some requirements that are there to make sure we’re doing all of the right things, but there’s also some times built in between those two missions to say, what did we learn from Artemis I that we can apply to Artemis II? How is that being factored into the design, when it seems like you’re already so far ahead, how is that being factored into the rest of the production process for Artemis II?

Stu McClung: One of the things I’ve always found, one of the strengths of the program, is we will use parts of the vehicle, reuse some aspects, but not all of it. And then, so we’ve got to continue this production line. So as it gives us the opportunity that as we fly and learn, we can assess and judge, and you’re right, a lot of these parts have already been built. We have a very rigorous review process to compare test, flight results ahead of the next flight, and say alright, is there something that I learned on this first flight that says this is a mandatory thing I need to work in, and if it is you adjust, you know? And you figure out what it takes to adjust it in. If it’s not mandatory, then you look at it and say, man, I looked at something, and I saw some data that says I can really, I can make this thing fly just a little, this much better, or make it this much safer, or I learned that, man, I don’t need quite as much protection here as I thought, and I can perhaps save downstream production costs. And so, the, the flight process includes a data review process that just feeds into the upcoming missions. And sort of allows you to on-ramp technology upgrades or repairs as you see fit. Or you say, you know what? Man, this computer worked way smoother than I thought, and I’m just going to keep using it, and you know, I can, I can save Ned some money and defer buying some new computers, right? And spread that out, right? And so, it’s — we had the – it’s fortunate in the sense that we have a vehicle that has a sustained production line that gives us that capability to on-ramp changes when we see fit.

Host: Now this is not the first — sorry to interrupt, but this is not the first time that you’re going to be doing this, right, to learn something from one mission and apply it to the next? That already happened for, I think it was Stu actually, that mentioned Exploration Flight Test 1 in December of 2014. There was already stuff that was learned from that mission that’s being applied to Artemis I, and even Artemis II. Is that right, Ned?

Ned Penley: Yeah. You know, we’ve had the Exploration Flight Test number 1 was December of 201[4], but you know, our testing is a lot more extensive than that, even. We’ve had several flights. We had Pad Abort 1 launch in May of 2010; that was where we tested the abort capability, you know, if something untoward were to happen on the launch pad, you have to fly the crew to safety. We used that launch abort system to pull them off the top of the rocket, and up high enough that we can deploy the chutes and can return the crew safely. And we did that test. And so that contributed to the whole learning process. And then EFT-1, it was great: we put that on a big Delta rocket, and flew it up into a high-altitude orbit, and returned, returned the spacecraft and tested the heat shield. And then the Ascent Abort Test 2 launched in July of 2019. That was pretty cool where, again, this abort capability you’ve got to test, and know when you’re flying if there’s something untoward that happens, you need to get the crew to safety, again, you use this launch abort system. But it’s pretty tricky in that dynamic environment of flight, and you have to test that launch abort system. And we did that. So all of those have contributed to the whole learning of how, how you fly, how you design this rocket, how you fly this rocket, and fly this spacecraft on the rocket. And then one other key test that we will do before Artemis II is when Artemis I comes back, we actually take that spacecraft, the return spacecraft, and we do vibration testing on it, more vibration testing on it, so if that launch abort capability is ever used that we’re absolutely 100% certain that it will survive that environment. So all those things contribute to our, our learning curve, if you will.

Host: Super important, right — it’s not just the one test, it’s all of these different tests together that give you the confidence going forward and the ability to learn so much that gets applied to future missions, to learn even more. Thinking about some of the things coming up, Ned, I’ll go to you for this, this last question, and then over to Stu as well, but there’s so much to look forward to right now: we have the Artemis I, Artemis II we’re actually going to fly crew, and we’re going to see crew around the Moon, and there’s so much progress already where we have capsules built, we have good relationships with partners and suppliers. What excites you the most thinking about Artemis and this whole, this whole endeavor that we’re embarking on to return humans to the Moon?

Ned Penley: Yeah. It’s all really exciting. It’s so cool. I am super-proud to, to be just a part of this endeavor. Like I said, you know, when you go to the Kennedy Space Center, you see all that stuff stacked up. It’s like that’s what we’ve worked so hard for, to make sure it’s all going to work and going to happen, and here it is happening. I’m looking forward to that Artemis I launch, looking forward to Artemis II, a successful flight with that. You know, I grew up in the, in the time of Apollo. I was a little boy and I was, you know, listening to Neil Armstrong step on the Moon; that was what absolutely motivated me to, to do this work. And I think it’s so cool to just be a part of it. I’m so glad to be a part of it, have my little piece. And to see it all coming together is just really exciting.

Host: Wonderful. Stu, same question to you.

Stu McClung: It’s interesting. Very similar emotions that Ned has, it’s, I find it really, to be a really personal hook to get to build, design and help build vehicles that the crew are going to fly. You know, you’ll end up in a case where some of these crew end up being really good friends. I remember my kid being on swim team with other astronauts’ [kids’] swim team. And it puts a different, different aspect to the importance of the mission. And so, yeah, I was, as Ned was talking, I think I, having worked parachutes and entry systems for a long time, that for both missions, when I see three good chutes and a nice, soft landing off the coast, I’m really looking forward to that, right? Because we got them out, both times we got them out there, got the mission done, and got everybody back home. And you know, then it’s time to move on to the next one. I’ll have my Fitbit on, and I’ll be curious to see what my pulse does.

Host: [laughter] Unbelievable. Very personal. A lot of hard work that went into this, and you can both tell you’re both passionate about this work, and it’s important to, to the nation, really. I think, Ned, it was you who said there’s so many, so many people that have their fingerprints in this from all over the U.S. and the world, really, that it is, I can see where that personal connection comes from, and it’s wonderful to hear from you both. So Ned and Stu, thank you so much for coming on Houston We Have a Podcast and bringing us a better understanding of just what it takes to build an Orion, and to share some of the progress that’s — it’s just unbelievable how much progress we’ve made, and we’re coming up on these missions very soon. It’s going to be a very exciting year. So, so to you both, thank you for coming on. Take care.

Stu McClung: Thanks a lot!

Ned Penley: Thanks for having me.

[ Music]

Host: Hey, thanks for sticking around. I really enjoyed having Ned and Stu on to talk about the Orion spacecraft and how to build it. They were both so excited to talk about all the progress, and there has been some significant progress for a lot of Orion spacecraft. I couldn’t believe it. I hope you got excited as much as I did. Check out NASA.gov for the latest on what’s happening with Orion, and with Artemis. If you like podcasts, we’re going to be talking about Artemis a lot this year, and we’re not the only ones going to be doing so. Check out NASA.gov/podcasts to check out all the other podcasts we have across the agency. And you can check out our full collection of episodes there as well. If you want to talk to us, we’re on the Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram; just use the hashtag #AskNASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea or make a comment for the show. Make sure to mention it’s for us at Houston We Have a Podcast. This episode was recorded on December 9th, 2021. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Pat Ryan, Heidi Lavelle, Belinda Pulido, and Laura Rochon. And, of course, thanks again to Ned Penley and Stu McClung for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you’re listening to us on and tell us what you think of our podcast. We’ll be back next week.