“Houston, We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, the home of human spaceflight, stationed in Houston, Texas. We bring space right to you! On this podcast, you’ll learn from some of the brightest minds of America’s space agency as they discuss topics in engineering, science, technology and more. You’ll hear firsthand from astronauts what it’s like to launch atop a rocket, live in space and re-enter the Earth’s atmosphere. And you’ll listen in to the more human side of space as our guests tell stories of behind-the-scenes moments never heard before.
Episode 13 features Mark Vande Hei, U.S. astronaut, who shares stories of his training and tips he learned from fellow astronauts before launching to the International Space Station for the first time on September 12, 2017. This episode was recorded on May 4, 2017.
Transcript
Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, We Have a Podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 13: “Before His First Flight.” I’m Gary Jordan and I’ll be your host today. So this is the podcast where we bring in the experts, like NASA scientists, engineers, sometimes even astronauts, and they all tell you the coolest things going on here at NASA. So today, we’re talking with Mark Vande Hei. He’s a U.S. Astronaut here at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas, and he just launched to the international space station on September 12th, 2017 to go to space for the very first time. We had a great discussion about his expectations for flying to space and some of the work and his training that he had to go through to get ready for his voyage to the station. So with no further delay, let’s go light speed and jump right ahead to our talk with Mr. Mark Vande Hei. Enjoy.
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>> T minus five seconds and counting. Mark. [ indistinct radio chatter ]
>> Houston, we have a podcast.
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Host: All right, well, thanks for coming today, Mark. I know you’re very busy, especially coming so close to your launch date. So that’s September again, right?
Mark Vande Hei: It is September 13th.
Host: It is September, okay. So that’s with– now, it’s kind of changed up a bit, right? So now we’re talking– you’re launching with Alexander and Joe, right?
Mark Vande Hei: That’s correct.
Host: Alexander Misurkin and Joe Acaba. So, I mean, this is your very first flight coming up soon, so you’ve been busy training for years. I mean, you were selected in 2009, if I’m not mistaken, right?
Mark Vande Hei: That’s correct.
Host: There’s a lot of training to be had so, I mean, let’s talk about some of those things. Like, what were your– what are your expectations and what are you preparing for really? I mean, what does an astronaut need to know before they launch?
Mark Vande Hei: So, the primary thing we need to know is how to– I would say the primary thing we need to know is how to follow instructions.
Host: All right.
Mark Vande Hei: Because we really are serving as the eyes and hands of a lot of other people that aren’t there with us but are able to support us.
Host: Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: So that’s the primary thing. You also need to know how to work well with the other people that you’re living with.
Host: That’s right.
Mark Vande Hei: And make sure you take care of each other, make sure that everything’s fully functional, and then after that I would say we have to have all the technical skills to do our job that are operate the science experiments and be able to keep the space station actually running.
Host: Nice. Now, I mean, so we talked a little bit on a previous episode with Randy Bresnik about some of the things you have to learn, but just like an overview of some of the things, like, in terms of knowing what to do on the station.
Mark Vande Hei: Mm-hmm.
Host:You’re talking all the different systems, right? So, Komrade described more fixing the toilet.
Mark Vande Hei: Yeah, yeah.
Host:And you know, learning how to do an EVA and everything in between.
Mark Vande Hei: Yeah.
Host:So is that kind of what you’ve been doing over the past–
Mark Vande Hei: Absolutely. I’ve got– Komrade’s going to be the commander so there’s some– certainly some additional things he’s got to learn.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: But, by and large, the crew members on the space station, when there’s not an emergency taking place, we’re all kind of equal.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: Certainly the commander, when an emergency is happening, he’s– that’s the person that’s making those tough calls and pulling the team together.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: And he will also coordinate on behalf of the entire team. But, crew members on the station are generalists. We have to have a skill set that will allow us to do whatever the ground needs us to do and that does involve EVA training, of course.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: That involves robotics training. That involves medical training, too, just in case something comes up, we’ll have to take care of each other. That’s been pretty interesting.
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: Did Komrade talk at all about that?
Host:About the– which part?
Mark Vande Hei: The medical training?
Host:Yeah, oh, yeah. I mean, just a tiny little bit. We actually only had about 25 minutes to talk, so he talked– I mean, mostly a little bit. He said, I mean, you have to– you have to know kind of the basics of medical training in case there’s an emergency situation, but he also mentioned that you have– you can call down to doctors and they can walk you through some of those things.
Mark Vande Hei: Absolutely.
Host:And I guess that kind of helps, right? Because especially not being a doctor and you guys– one thing I said last time was you have to be a jack of all trades and a master of all in sort of a– in a way, I guess. You have to really know the systems.
Mark Vande Hei: In a way, but the ground is always there to help out.
Host:That’s true.
Mark Vande Hei: For example, we had an event that involved us simulating that one of the crew members needed CPR.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: And it had been six months at least, maybe even a year, since my previous training on that and the instructors did a good job of saying, “okay, go for it.” So, I knew I should do chest compressions. I knew I should give– do breaths periodically.
Host:Right, right.
Mark Vande Hei: But, I wasn’t 100% certain of what number of breaths, what number of repetitions.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: So I just started, and then they reminded as part of the training that, “hey, look, when you have that uncertainty– you did a good job of getting starting, but the ground’s there to help answer that question. You could’ve got– said, “hey, we need this conference right now and let’s get a doctor talking to us and make sure we’re doing the right things.””
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: So because you have to know so much sometimes the details– the ground can really help you out with that.
Host:Yeah, and they’re there 24/7, right?
Mark Vande Hei: Absolutely.
Host:So you can call down and say, “hey, something’s going on. I need help.”
Mark Vande Hei: Yes. Yes.
Host:And you guys walk through all of those different things. So, I mean, on top of just training for some of the things on the international space station that you’re going to be doing, especially emergency situations, you go through other types of training too, right? Don’t you do survival training and things like that?
Mark Vande Hei: Yeah, absolutely. We have the– first of all, there’s land survival training– one of the first things you do as astronaut candidates.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: I believe the next class is going to do that at Fort Rucker, it’s an army base.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: Then, there’s land survival train– no, I already talked about that. There’s land survival training that we do as astronaut candidates.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: And then, the next survival training you do is actually after you’re assigned to a Soyuz crew. There’s winter survival training in case your Soyuz lands some place where the search and rescue forces can’t get to you as quickly as you’d like.
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: And you may have to be some place in the winter in Russia and have to be able to survive for a couple days.
Host:Oh, wow.
Mark Vande Hei: Worst case.
Host:Right, right.
Mark Vande Hei: So we do that training. That’s also a very good time for the crew to bond with each other, as you can imagine.
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: There’s also nominally, the Soyuz lands on land.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: But, we also have water survival training.
Host:Okay, just in case it does land on water.
Mark Vande Hei: Just in case. Well, if there’s a really urgent need to descend.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: And we’re not going to worry about where on the earth we hit.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: Possibly, if it’s that– normally, we’re very–
Host:A lot of bad things have to happen in a row to get to that point.
Mark Vande Hei: Yes. We really want to land in specific places, but just in case, there’s the option. Much of the earth is covered with water, so we learned how to deal with that situation as well.
Host:Right. So, you did do the winter survival training, right? You had to go through that. What are– do you have any good stories of– you said it was a good time to bond with your crewmates, so are there any good stories there?
Mark Vande Hei: Sure. So, the training consists of staying up. For us, we stayed up for two nights.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: The first night you egress the Soyuz capsule that they put out in the forest. We’ve got a really good set of cold weather gear that we put on.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: And so, we put all that stuff on, and then we use the seat liners, that are molded to us, that are in the– I would call it kind of like a bucket inside the Soyuz.
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: We can take those out and use those as sleds. So we put a bunch of gear on that.
Host:Oh, I see.
Mark Vande Hei: And you got to drag those through to a place to find a place to set up camp.
Host:Cool.
Mark Vande Hei: Of course, the parachute that the Soyuz lands with is huge, so that’s a massive resource of cloth.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: So the first night, what we did is had to set up a lean-to and used both timber that we found in the area, and strings from the parachute, and the actual cloth from the parachute, as well as a lot of branches to set up a shelter. But, that was really– that night was all about the fire.
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: Because the lean-to just kept us from losing all the heat, but we were kind of sleeping– there was two people kind of sleeping on top of each other just about–
Host:Sorry, a lean-to is like– is that a shelter that, I’m assuming, leans up against something? Is that what that is?
Mark Vande Hei: A lean-to– imagine if you had a plane that was– like, a half of a roof.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: And all it is is one wall that goes from maybe about waist high down to the ground, with enough space underneath it so that two people could be sleeping underneath it with the length of their bodies facing out to the open.
Host: I see, okay.
Mark Vande Hei: And what we do with that is we light a fire on the open side so that they get a lot of warmth, and the fact that you have that backdrop helps reflect some of that heat down towards you.
Host:Nice. But, it doesn’t trap any of the smoke or anything like that?
Mark Vande Hei: Ideally, no.
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: No. But, that’s why I said, it’s all about the fire.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: If the fire goes out, that lean-to is really worthless.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: So, one person’s awake and constantly cutting wood, because to keep the fire going it’s amazing how much wood you need in that environment.
Host:Wow.
Mark Vande Hei: We did that. My two Russians that i– initially I was going to launch with two Russians, so I did that with two Russians.
Host: I see.
Mark Vande Hei: They had both done this before. They were really, really good with the material we had.
Host:Nice.
Mark Vande Hei: And were smart enough that they knew that the next day we’d have to set up a teepee. So, our lean-to kind of had a few pieces that we could use for the teepee ready to go, so we just had to change the lean-to and we kind of turned it into a teepee on the next day.
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: So, the teepee was great. We– it’s much more comfortable. It had a much smaller fire inside the teepee.
Host:Oh, okay. So, you had to make the teepee on the second day because it’s– I guess, it’s more intensive to build? Is that why?
Mark Vande Hei: It takes longer to build.
Host: I see.
Mark Vande Hei: But, it’s also much better shelter.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: So, it’s the type of thing that– quite honestly, I think all of us would’ve preferred to go right to the teepee, because– I mean, I’m not 100% certain it really is– takes longer to build, but the Russians wanted us to have the experience building both types.
Host: I see.
Mark Vande Hei: And to understand what it took to live in both of them.
Host:Okay, okay.
Mark Vande Hei: You need a lot less lumber to keep the teepee warm, but again, we were both– we were experiencing both situations.
Host:Mm-hmm. Wow. And then, I guess, you have survival training. What other kinds of things do you go through?
Mark Vande Hei: Well, one of the big deals for astronauts that work at NASA is we come from a lot of different backgrounds–
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: –from microbiologist to navy seals. So, we’ve got to be able to have a culture where all those people can come together and operate in a– operate highly technical machines in an environment where if you mess it up you could die.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: So, another thing that’s really very, very interesting is we use t-38s. It’s a– it’s the same type of aircraft that the air force uses to train pilots.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: So we used those.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: The nice thing about is, much like– we can’t fly people in space very often, but we can put people in these jets very often and it– you have to– the jet moves really, really fast, so you have to be able to think fast. You’ve also got to coordinate with the ground and they will direct you what to do, and at times you have to make decisions that require you to say, “hey, I get what you just said, but we really need to do this because we’re in a tough situation,” for example.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: And you have to coordinate with the other crew member because it’s a two cockpit aircraft. There’s a pilot and typically we call him a back seater. You work as the navigator and communicator in a nominal situation.
Host:And was that your job?
Mark Vande Hei: Well, because I’m not a military pilot, yes.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: So all of the front seaters are military pilots if they’re astronauts, and they are instructor pilots, typically from the military as well if they’re not astronauts. It’s a great deal to have to go fly around in a jet as part of your job.
Host:Right. Did you end up flying a fellow astronaut? Or did you fly with one of the pilots that they had, I guess?
Mark Vande Hei: Initially, you fly with instructors.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: But, by and large, almost every flight is with the– another astronaut pilot.
Host: I see. Did any of them mess with you at any time or try to make you throw up or anything like that?
Mark Vande Hei: No. So, one time though– so one of the things they always tell– because they’re very experienced and we’re not, it’s real easy to just assume that they know how to do everything. They can fly that jet completely by themselves.
Host:Awesome.
Mark Vande Hei: So it can be a little intimidating when you get in the back seat. You know the front seater can do everything by themselves.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: But, they really want you to be engaged and recognize that if they do something stupid that would kill them it’s going to kill both of us.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: You’re a nano second behind them. And we train and the astronaut pilots allow us to do everything. They’ll allow us to fly the jet, do the communications, do the navigation, just to get good at that, because there’s a– for example, if something happened to the pilot, you might have to do that.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: And it’s more fun for us. And actually, a lot of the astronaut pilots have experienced with being an instructor pilots, so they’re good at that.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: Well, one time, Barry Wilmore was trying to make sure I was paying attention, and I was supposed to be climbing to a specific altitude, and just maybe about 500 feet before I needed to start leveling off, he said, “so, where do you go to church?” And I stopped paying attention to what was going on in the jet and then I started talking to him. And then he did that on purpose so that he– so then I recognized I need to prioritize what I was doing to the jet more, and so then he waited until I was really flying straight through the altitude I was supposed to be leveling off at and said, “check your altitude.” And then I did. Another time, we’re not– as a back seater, I’m not allowed to fly within 200 feet of the ground, but you can fly towards an airport, get to 200 feet, and then act like there’s a problem on the runway, and then basically add power to the jet and go through the takeoff process.
Host: I see.
Mark Vande Hei: Well, earlier on in my training, I was flying with another guy and he did a really good job of letting me mess up as much as possible before he’d correct me so that I would learn. Same type of thing, I gave it a lot of power, I started climbing.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: I didn’t– I wasn’t experienced enough to recognize that right after I started climbing I needed to reduce the power.
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: So, I was really, really speeding up and I only had to climb up to 3,000 feet, which you do really fast in that jet if you haven’t taken the power out.
Host:Whoa.
Mark Vande Hei: And so, same thing, I got to 3,000 feet, I was climbing really, really fast, he said, “check your altitude.” And my immediate response wasn’t to take out the power, it was just to pitch the nose forward, which meant that anything that I had loose in the jet just hit the ceiling because I just went down so fast all the sudden.
Host:Whoa.
Mark Vande Hei: Really good training.
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: I didn’t forget that lesson.
Host:Yeah. That’s good that you guys are always keeping each other in check. I’m sure that all your astronaut– your fellow astronauts are constantly doing this, right? They’re giving you advice and anything like that.
Mark Vande Hei: Absolutely.
Host:Now, you being a first time flyer, I’m sure they’ve given you some of those experiences, especially some of your classmates, right?
Mark Vande Hei: Mm-hmm.
Host:So we have Reid Wiseman, and I’m trying to think.
Mark Vande Hei: Mike Hopkins.
Host:Mike Hopkins.
Mark Vande Hei: Kjell Lindgren.
Host:Kjell– all these guys have flown before.
Mark Vande Hei: Kate Rubins.
Host:Yeah, that’s right, Kate most recently. So, have these guys given you some advice, come to you and say, “hey, this”– you know, any kind of things that you have to be watching out for?
Mark Vande Hei: Absolutely.
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: And not just them, all of them.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: Everything from if you’re having a bad day don’t talk to it on the– don’t talk to people about it on the radio, to expectations on how to– as you’re getting ready for the launch and your family’s in Kazakhstan, getting ready for that, what to expect out of that.
Host:Any good nuggets that they’ve told you?
Mark Vande Hei: Chris Cassidy told me that one of the things to do when you’re doing a procedure is to make sure– there’s notes blocks in a lot of the procedures.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: And he said, “the notes blocks aren’t required for us to read.”
Host:Hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: But, you really need to read those because they typically give you the big picture.
Host:Hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: And so, when you read those carefully, then as you’re doing the steps it’ll prevent you from doing those steps blindly, which helps you be a little more accurate in how you’re doing the procedure. So if you know why you’re doing this particular thing then it’s a lot easier to recognize when you’re pressing the wrong– about to press the wrong button because it doesn’t make sense.
Host: I see.
Mark Vande Hei: Maybe you misread that step later on.
Host:Okay, so like, all the little details, I’m sure.
Mark Vande Hei: there’s a– oh, yeah. Yes, yes.
Host:So, I mean, is there anything that you– that any astronaut has given you so far just to always keep this in mind. I guess, the notes is one of them, but especially– maybe Soyuz ascent or something, you know, maybe lean back. I remember, what was– I was talking with Shane Kimbrough just recently and they said once he gets to a certain point you got to make sure you strap down, otherwise you’re going to go flying up or something like that. Any kind of pieces of advice like that? Well, it doesn’t even have to be operational. It could be you’re going to the bathroom and you have to make sure that you turn the fan on first or one of those things.
Mark Vande Hei: Mm-hmm.
Host:I’m sure you go through all of those things.
Mark Vande Hei: Keep track of your stuff. So, one of the things that we’re very comfortable with on earth is when you put something down it’s down.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: And we tend to think of leaving things on a two dimensional surface and staying there.
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: But, you have an extra dimension in space and you have to put a little extra effort into remembering, like, another dimension that it could be someplace else, too.
Host:That’s right.
Mark Vande Hei: That can be challenging for people, is just really slowing yourself down enough to look at where you put something and visualize what’s around you. Because you could come back to the same place, and if you weren’t very deliberate about looking at that place from an orientation that you always take, you might come in there upside down and be like, “well, I remember putting it somewhere in here, but nothing looks– I can’t picture it in this spot.”
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: So, things like that.
Host: I remember talking to Mike Hopkins a couple– well, probably more than a couple months ago, but he– one things that always stuck with me was he was talking about he was working on this rack, I guess, and he had to pull it back and get to– get behind it. And just the way that he was doing it, he just– it was hard to reach. And I don’t know if he’s told you the same story, but it was hard to reach and he calls to the ground, tells him his problem, and he’s like– and they’re like, “well, flip upside down.” And he’s like, “oh, yeah, I can do that.” And so, I guess you’re training on the ground, but you do have the limitations of gravity on the ground even though you have all these mock ups. But, flipping upside down was– it solved the problem immediately. He got a whole new vantage point, but you can’t practice flipping up on– in 1g on the airplane.
Mark Vande Hei: You can’t. Yeah, definitely can’t.
Host:Oh. So an astronaut class, just actually recently got selected. Does this bring back any kind of any memories of when you got selected as an astronaut back in 2009?
Mark Vande Hei: Yes, definitely. I’ve seen a lot of those astronaut hopefuls that have been either in the gym.
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: Or going to their interviews or whatever. That is an emotional rollercoaster. I don’t envy them at all.
Host:Because you went through it.
Mark Vande Hei: Absolutely, yeah.
Host:Yeah, yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: It’s– I think I did a pretty good job of assuming there was no hope that I would get the job and that made it a lot less stressful. In fact, the only time that I got kind of like, “whoa, be careful,” was when I thought I had just done something really, really successful and maybe there’s a chance I’ll get this job. I thought, “no, no, no. Don’t do that to yourself.”
Host:Because that’s when you get– you make yourself all nervous, right, I guess?
Mark Vande Hei: That’s when you– if you have nothing to lose, then it’s no big deal.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: I just would’ve– if I didn’t get the job I would’ve had– still had a really cool experience getting the firsthand experience of what the astronaut selection process is like, if nothing else.
Host:Yeah, I mean, what is it like, right? I mean, you say it’s stressful and there’s things, but what are they doing throughout this interview process?
Mark Vande Hei: Well, I would say it’s– I’m certain that the process that this class that really hasn’t been selected yet, but is in the process of finishing being selected.
Host:Uh-huh, at this time through.
Mark Vande Hei: I’m sure their– I know their process has changed since we went through, but there’s psychological examinations that we did.
Host:Oh, wow. Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: There was group problem solving exercises that we did. There was a lot of medical exams, especially by the second interview. A lot of that is checking to make sure that you don’t have any medical issues.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: There are– of course, there’s an interview. Each time you come to visit NASA, the first time and the second time, there’s an hour long interview.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: There–
Host:So, it’s to times that you come? You come–
Mark Vande Hei: Well, the first time–
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: For my class, the first time they interviewed people they invited 120 people to come.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: And then, of that 120 they pared it down to 40 or 50 for a second interview.
Host:Wow.
Mark Vande Hei: And because the medical exams, you can imagine are so expensive, they only give the medical exams mostly to that smaller group.
Host:Makes sense. I mean, honestly, like to be an astronaut, not only do you have to be super smart and be able to get along with your crewmates and everything, but you have to make sure you’re in tip top physical shape and that nothing could possibly go wrong. You were fortunate enough to actually get the call to be–
Mark Vande Hei: Yes, yeah.
Host:What was that like? Where were you?
Mark Vande Hei: I was actually in the mission control center working as a Capcom that day.
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: So it was– I’m pretty sure they didn’t know where I was. I answered my cell phone and it was tough because I was so excited, but I wasn’t in a situation where I was allowed to announce it to anybody.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: So I’m sitting around a whole bunch of other people that I’m working with and I just wanted to cheer, but I just– and I had to– but, I was still working on console. I had to be listening for the crew to call and I had to be listening to what the ground was talking about.
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: So I had to just act like it didn’t happen and just get back to work.
Host:So, in that situation, from what I understand, you’re only allowed to tell very few people, like your wife and your parents.
Mark Vande Hei: I told my wife– yup.
Host:And that’s pretty much it.
Mark Vande Hei: Yeah, I think I sent my wife an email, told her what had happened, and then only about three hours later did i– that I sent her another email that said, “oh, and don’t tell anybody else.”
Host:Oh. [ laughing ]
Mark Vande Hei: Yeah, let’s just say that wasn’t quite as successful as I should’ve made it.
Host:Oh, man, that had to be– I can’t even imagine just getting that call. That would be–
Mark Vande Hei: I was– yeah, I was pretty excited.
Host:Yeah. Let’s go back to some of the other training. So you have– we talked about a little just training for on orbit, survival training. How about, I guess, Soyuz training. Now, you said that now they switched the crews around and now you have to learn a lot more. Now you have to– you have to be in the kind of not the hot seat but I guess one of the hot seats? Is that how that works?
Mark Vande Hei: Yes.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: As I initially started training I was in the right seat.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: Which has very limited responsibilities. The crew– well, example, Jack Fischer and Fyodor Yurchikhin, when they launched they didn’t have anybody in the right seat.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: They don’t– you don’t need someone to be there.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: There are some things that are more uncomfortable for– it’s very, very helpful to have a right seater, and I realized that when I started training as a left seater because you need so much more time to train as a left seater.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: You don’t always have the right seater there. And so, just having an additional person who you can say, “hey, remind me when– tell me when five minutes goes by,” or “calculate at what rate the pressure’s dropping so that we can figure out how much time we have to– can we wait to land at our nominal landing spot? Or do we have to start the landing process immediately, wherever that takes us?” I’m talking about situations in the simulations in Russia where they’re making it a really bad day in the Soyuz.
Host:Right. Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: So, when I changed to being a left seater it was a lot– you’re really helping to operate the spacecraft.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: The training’s good, but you can imagine the first time you’re in there pressing buttons and recognizing that, “if I mess this up this is really going to be bad.” And I’ve done it so many times now that I’m well past worrying about that.
Host:Oh, yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: But, there’s a lot that goes on and it’s– the trainers there do a really good job of making you ready for a really, really bad day, but even given six malfunctions– well, for example, one of the simulations that I don’t think I’ll ever forget was we were docking with the space station and this– the automatic systems to dock had stopped working, so the commander had to take over and do everything manually.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: And then, we got up to the space station, we made contact with the space station. I was expecting the simulation to end at any moment, because all we had to do at this point was– the way the Soyuz docking mechanism works is there’s a probe that sticks out the front, and then once it makes connection with the space station then the next step is you retract that probe and that draws the two spacecrafts together.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: So we’re in that situation, we’re connected now to the space station, but the retraction mechanism didn’t work.
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: So we couldn’t get that last distance to close the gap with the space station. And so, we’re going through the troubleshooting for that. It wasn’t– nothing had to happen super-fast.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: We had time, so we’re kind of going through that procedure.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: And then, in the midst of that, suddenly simulated smoke started coming from underneath the spacecraft.
Host:Fantastic.
Mark Vande Hei: So here we are– so in the midst of that, we had a fire where we couldn’t get to the space station. We had to do an emergency undocking and then had– so we had to go through the whole emergency descent process.
Host:Wow.
Mark Vande Hei: And it was just total– it was a lot of– tons of stuff had to happen really fast at that point.
Host:Wow. Yeah, because I mean, if you’re going through the simulation you think, like you said, this is the last thing.
Mark Vande Hei: Yeah, I was mentally kind of on the, like, winding down, like, “okay, it won’t be long now and we’ll be done.”
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: And then, it was like a whole other simulation started.
Host:Wow. Oh, my gosh. The things you guys have to go through is just unreal.
Mark Vande Hei: But, it’s really kind of cool, too.
Host:It is. It is. But, that’s what you have to do, right? So a lot of the– a lot of the training is not only kind of understanding the systems and doing just the day to day stuff, but really, “hey, if this scenario happens, this is what you do. If this scenario” — like, a lot of procedural stuff.
Mark Vande Hei: And not only that, but it’s important that we’re doing it as a crew because the styles of each person are different. And understanding what the expectations of that Soyuz commander are for me as a left seater versus the crew who had trained for years to do that role where I was getting another six months to do that.
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: So the teamwork aspect is huge.
Host:Right. I mean, that’s true for some of these things, but also, I guess, EVA training, training in the neutral buoyancy laboratory.
Mark Vande Hei: Yes.
Host:So I’m sure you’ve done that before, right?
Mark Vande Hei: A lot, yup.
Host:Yeah, so what kind– how often have you been in doing that kind of training and sort of what is it like?
Mark Vande Hei: Before I got assigned, I did it about an average of seven times a year.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: And I think I was kind of pushing to get more opportunities to do that.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: Now that I’ve been assigned, it’s probably been a little less than that.
Host:Interesting.
Mark Vande Hei: But, it’s always a six hour– it’s typically six hours underwater–
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: –in the external [extravehicular] mobility unit is what we call it, the spacewalking spacesuit.
Host:Mm-hmm, EMU.
Mark Vande Hei: Mm-hmm. And just in case people aren’t aware, the way that works is there’s divers that are around us to help balance the suit to make it as good as possible a simulation of weightlessness.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: It’s– because of the air volume in the suit and the fact that the suit is actually quite heavy, it would be really easy to end up in a situation where your legs are really, really light and your chest is heavy, and you wouldn’t have the strength to flip yourself so that your feet are back underneath you again.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: So the divers will help try to make it seem a little more like you’re out in space, however, the suit is floating. You’re not floating inside the suit.
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: So if you’re upside down in the suit then all the weight of your body might be resting on your shoulders, so it’s– it can never be a perfect simulation.
Host:Yeah. I guess, I mean, from what I’ve heard is kind of– so, like you said it, you’re underwater in this huge pool that’s like 40 feet deep, just enormous, and they have full scale mockups of the ISS underneath so you can actually kind of feel like what it would be to be on the station and have kind of the muscle memory to know, “okay, this is here, and this is here, and then this handrail’s here,” so you know kind of where to grab on and everything. But, from what I understand, is you’re right, it’s probably as close to simulating what it’s like to actually do a spacewalk as possible.
Mark Vande Hei: Mm-hmm.
Host:But, first of all, yeah, if you’re upside down in space, that’s it, you’re just upside down but you’re still kind of floating in the suit.
Mark Vande Hei: Mm-hmm.
Host:Whereas, you still have gravity on earth, so you’re right, you feel the whole weight. But then also moving, you still have that water resistance, right.
Mark Vande Hei: That’s true. That’s very true.
Host:So I guess things fly a little bit quicker in space than they would if you were to toss them or move your hand or something in underwater. And I’m sure you’ve kind of noticed a little bit of that, right? And maybe the divers are sort of– are sort of pushing things a little bit faster so that it simulates it?
Mark Vande Hei: No, we– I think sometimes because it’s so hard for the divers to tell what you’re trying to do.
Host:Okay, yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: They tend to like let you do what you need to do, unless they can tell if there’s a situation where it’s clearly not. Or, you might– what I started doing with the divers is I realized that some things there’s no need for you to fight through just toughing something out.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: Sometimes they’ll say– well, for example, we have a body restraint tether.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: It’s kind of like a snake that you can rigidize in a certain shape.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: And it’s like a third arm. You can use it to attach yourself to the space station so you have two hands free and you can do work.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: Or, if you have a large what we call an ORU, an orbital replaceable unit.
Host:Okay, it’s like a spare part almost?
Mark Vande Hei: A spare part.
Host:Yeah. Right.
Mark Vande Hei: It could be very large. It could be really tiny.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: You can attach that to that body restraint tether and translate along and it’ll just be there.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: Well, imagine that that thing wants to float up to the surface of the water.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: Or wants to sink to the bottom of the pool. The divers will hold on to that, but then you could potentially have this arm sticking off of your hip and if a diver doesn’t realize that you’re trying really hard to rotate towards your right shoulder you’re not just trying to rotate yourself, you’re suddenly trying to rotate this diver with a tank who’s holding on to that.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: So when I realized that that becomes an issue sometimes is that I just say, “hey, I’m not sure why, but I’m having a hard time rotating towards my right shoulder.” And then suddenly it’ll become very easy to rotate towards my right shoulder.
Host:So you don’t have direct communications with the divers then?
Mark Vande Hei: Oh, there’s underwater speakers.
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: So everything you’re saying– if there’s a lot of noise underwater, because when we do scuba stuff sometimes it is hard to hear.
Host:Uh-huh.
Mark Vande Hei: When you’re blowing bubbles out, there’s a lot of noise from the bubbles. But if they stop breathing for a moment they can hear what you’re saying and they’re really, really good about keeping track of what we’re saying.
Host:That’s right. Yeah, and they do– I mean, I’ve spoken with divers in the past and they do– so you guys do six-hour kind of simulations underwater and they do two hour rotations.
Mark Vande Hei: Mm-hmm.
Host:And it’s a little bit different because the astronauts are in the emus, so you guys have the liquid cooling garment, and you guys are at a pretty good temperature. But for them, two hours is a long time to be in the pool and the temperatures, so they do that kind of rotation thing.
Mark Vande Hei: Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, it’s also partly because it’s such– they’re responsible for our safety and it’s a very– they’ve got to be very, very attentive so they got to make sure they’re super alert. And there are limitations for how long you can dive on those tanks.
Host:Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, one of the things I think about with being an astronaut and preparing to be an astronaut is just how physically able you have to be. You have to– because you’re talk– I mean, we’re talking about spacesuits, these are very heavy and being able to spend six hours underwater in a pool, not eating, you know, I’d be so hungry after six hours. But, things like that, what do you do to stay healthy and to make sure you’re physically at your peak to make sure you’re able to do all of these crazy things– survive in Russia in the winter, and stuff like that?
Mark Vande Hei: So, I had a boss one time when I first– early in my army career, that said make physical training the first priority of every day.
Host:Hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: And I think sometimes we don’t give ourselves permission to do that. We might feel a little guilty, like it almost seems selfish.
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: But, because my boss told me that, it really is something that stuck with me and I really I can’t afford to always make it the first priority of every day.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: But, I’ve recognized that it really does need to be a priority and the nice thing about this job is the job gives us opportunities to do that.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: It’s got a great facility. We’ve got great trainers and we’ve also got– if we injure ourselves we’ve got people that’ll help us get rehabilitated as quickly as possible.
Host:And you guys– the astronauts actually have their own gym here, right, at the johnson space center?
Mark Vande Hei: It’s actually not really called the astronaut gym.
Host:Oh, okay.
Mark Vande Hei: It’s more designed towards a rehabilitation facility.
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: So, when people come back from space, we need– they’ve got to readapt to living in gravity again.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: And that’s really the primary function.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: it works out that as a secondary benefit of that is we get some really good workout facilities.
Host:That’s right. I remember talking with, again, Shane Kimbrough a couple weeks ago, I think at this point. Yeah, a couple weeks ago and he had– I got the chance to talk with him just two days after he landed.
Mark Vande Hei: Mm-hmm.
Host:And he was already working out. It’s crazy. I mean, he was talking about being dizzy just right after landing, and then, bam, he’s up on his feet and being rehabilitated.
Mark Vande Hei: Mm-hmm.
Host:That’s crazy. So, are there any other sort of training aspects that, like, we need to know based–
Mark Vande Hei: Interesting stuff?
Host:Yeah, interesting stuff that you go through that just, you know, a civilian like us don’t really get to experience. You know, I know about the survival training, all the different things that you do to prepare for being on orbit, learning all the systems, learning how to do EVAs, all these different things.
Mark Vande Hei: Yeah, there’s another facility that I think is really, really neat. It’s called the virtual reality lab here at johnson space center.
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: Have you ever been over there?
Host:You know, I’ve seen it. Oh, is that the one where you sit in the chair and they put the goggles over you and you have the hands– yes, I’ve done that, yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: That’s amazing. There’s two things that I’ve really gotten a kick out of lately doing over there. One is the– practicing using the safer–
Host:Oh, okay.
Mark Vande Hei: So, every time we do a spacewalk, we’re always tethered to the space station, so that– and we’re locally tethered, so if you let go, you should stay right within hands reach of something.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: But also another, much longer tether, just in case we mess that up, that will keep us safely attached to the space station. But if we mess both of those things up, there’s also a thing called the simplified aid for EVA rescue. It’s called a SAFR.
Host:SAFR.
Mark Vande Hei: It looks like a backpack that we wear that’s basically a jet pack.
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: But it’s got very limited resources and you need to know how to use it. So, to practice flying yourself as an independent spacecraft back to the space station requires a little bit of training. So, what they do in that training is they’ll tell you, “okay, here’s where we’re going to start. You can see the space station right there.” I mean, you’re wearing those goggles, so you can look in any direction and you see either stars or the earth or the space station.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: And then, they’ll say, “okay, we’re going to start the simulation.” And they’ll push you off of the space station.
Host:Whoa!
Mark Vande Hei: So the space station will be spinning and you’ll be– the distance will be increasing between you and the space station.
Host:So you’re sort of tumbling in this simulation, right?
Mark Vande Hei: Yes, absolutely.
Host:Oh, whoa!
Mark Vande Hei: And you have to do that because it takes a little bit of time for– they know that it takes some time to deploy the SAFR and the hand controllers and things like that.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: So, maybe ten seconds. I can’t remember exactly.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: And they’ll tell you– because, you’re initially– they don’t have a mock up where you have to actually deploy the SAFR. You start off with holding it in your hands.
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: Because they know it’s going to take some time; they don’t let you start it right away.
Host:Makes sense, okay.
Mark Vande Hei: So they’ll say, “okay, now you can start it.” But, the first thing you’ve got to do is call the ground and say, “hey, this is EV2. I’m not connected to the space station. I’m heading nadir and I’m deploying the SAFR.” Which, you can imagine, would be a very uncomfortable situation.
Host:Oh, yeah. Yeah, that’s a very calm way of saying, “hey, I’m plummeting towards earth, by the way.”
Mark Vande Hei: And it’s a pretty slow speed, thankfully.
Host:That’s true.
Mark Vande Hei: Because it would have to be a speed where you pushed yourself off.
Host:Okay, okay.
Mark Vande Hei: But the SAFR’s really neat. Once you deploy it, it will stop itself. So, you might be spinning, but once you– it’s got sensors, so it will stop all the rotations. So, you’ll be fixed in one location. It might be looking away from the space station, but at least you’re not rotating anymore. And then we’re trained first to yaw, to find the space station.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: And then– so we start that yaw and then once you get to the right stop place, then you press a button and it’ll stop that rotation again.
Host:Fancy.
Mark Vande Hei: Basically, you have a little bit of an impulse. Don’t use up much of the resources.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: You wait, be patient, wait for the space station to be lined up, and then you stop it, and then you can adjust your pitch.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: Give it just a little bit, be patient, wait so you’re just lined up. And then you change it from adjusting rotations to adjusting the translations.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: So, ideally, at that point, you’re lined up exactly where you want to go, which should be exactly where you left from, and then you just give it a positive x. So you start translating directly towards it, just a little bit. And, if your aim is good, you shouldn’t have to make any adjustments and you have plenty of resources to get back.
Host:All right.
Mark Vande Hei: If you mess up– maybe you forgot how to control it– you could burn through half of your stuff and just completely miss the space station.
Host:Okay, so, it’s not like a jetpack how you would imagine in like a sci-fi movie, where you’re just kind of zooming around. It’s stop, press a button, turn, press a button, lean forward, or whatever it is.
Mark Vande Hei: You don’t want to overdo any of those things.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: You want to do everything– you want to be very calm about it.
Host:Very methodical, yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: And they’ll do it at a variety of locations. They’ll do it from different velocities of separation.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: So, that’s really good training.
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: Another thing– do you have any questions about that?
Host:No– well, I mean, the one thing I was going to ask was: do you guys have a competition to see how accurate you can go on that first– because you said you’ve got to line up and the hope is that you press the button once and then you go right where– do you guys have competitions to see who’s the most accurate?
Mark Vande Hei: I haven’t ever walked out of there and tried to compare how much propellant I had left to somebody else. But maybe that might be a good thing to do in the future. We’ll have like an astronaut Olympics.
Host:Yeah, that would be fun.
Mark Vande Hei: That would be really fun.
Host:Yeah!
Mark Vande Hei: Or really humbling.
Host:Yeah! Go through the training and see– do like little things like that.
Mark Vande Hei: “how’d you score?”
Host:“i had this much propellant left.”
Mark Vande Hei: “ooh! I had this much.”
Host:No, but go on. You were going to say something else.
Mark Vande Hei: Oh, another thing that I thought was really interesting in virtual reality lab is they train you how to do mass handling. So, you put on those glasses again.
Host:Okay.
Mark Vande Hei: This time, again, you’re sitting in the chair. But they have, basically, handles, like we would have for an ORU.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: It could be something that, in space, has a mass of 1,000 kilograms. It could be something that’s 200 kilograms. But they can set up the computer, the simulation to operate that way. And it’s attached to a bunch of strings in each direction.
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: So, you can start it moving and you’ll feel the force. As you get it moving– you can imagine if it’s a ton–
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: As you get it moving, it’s harder to get it to stop moving. And maybe it’s hard to get–
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: So things are, we call it, weightless.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: But they have a lot of inertia. They have the same amount of inertia as they have on the ground.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: If something weighs a lot, it’s going to take more force to get it started moving–
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: –and more force to stop it moving. And it’s a really interesting– it’s the closest to dealing with weightlessness that I’ve ever felt, because I had a large object that I needed to line up over some pins. And then, once I got it over the pins, I had to lower it down. The first time I did it, I think, as most people would, you have a tendency to want to be moving it all the time. So, I grabbed this object. It seems really heavy. I get it started moving, but I kind of keep pushing it. I’m using my strength to keep it moving.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: And then, I had to use even more strength to get it to stop moving. The second time I did it, I realized that once I got it started moving I could almost– I could take my hand– because it was already moving. Nothing’s going to stop it from moving.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: So, once I got it just moving really slowly I just put my fingertips on those handles and they kept moving.
Host:Oh.
Mark Vande Hei: And then I just– very relaxed and very calmly waited for it to get to the right spot. And I gave it very little pressure to stop it, this massive object.
Host:Wow!
Mark Vande Hei: And then i– when I wanted to move it down– I just gave it a little bit of a nudge. As soon as I knew that it was moving in the right direction, I just used my fingertips and let it go. And I suspect, when you’re in space, doing a spacewalk that, because we’re in the pool, you’re going to have this tendency, when we were training as a newbie, to want to feel like you’ve got to continuously force yourself to keep moving.
Host:Right.
Mark Vande Hei: But once you start getting yourself to move in the right direction, you just have to use fingertip pressure to tend yourself and make sure you’re continuing to do the right thing.
Host:So, that’s the nice pairing between doing simulation runs in the neutral buoyancy laboratory and then going to the virtual reality and doing– you just get a different perspective.
Mark Vande Hei: Exactly. In the NBL– in the neutral buoyancy lab–
Host:Yeah.
Mark Vande Hei: You can move 100 meters.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Mark Vande Hei: In the virtual reality lab, you can move about a foot. You can move something about a foot. So, it’s really just a fine tuning of things.
Host:It’s the little things. But they’re really important, right?
Mark Vande Hei: Absolutely.
Host:Knowing that if you try to tug this big, massive object really, really fast, it’s going to be really hard to stop.
Mark Vande Hei: Yes.
Host:Those are little things but, also, extremely important. All right. Well, Mark, thanks for taking the time to actually sit down and talk through some of the astronaut training and what it was like to be selected as an astronaut, all of the above. I know you’re very busy, so I know this is a big chunk of time for you. So, that was awesome. But, for the listeners, if you want to know more, and follow Mark’s journey once he goes to the international space station, stay tuned until after the music closing credits that we have here and we’ll tell you exactly where you need to go. So, thanks again, Mark, for coming on the show.
Mark Vande Hei: Thank you.
[ music ]
>> Houston, go ahead.
>> I’m on the space shuttle.
>> Roger, zero-g and I feel fine.
>> Shuttle has cleared the tower.
>> We came in peace for all mankind.
>> It’s actually a huge honor to break the record like this.
>> Not because they are easy, but because they are hard.
>> Houston, welcome to space.
[ music ]
Host:Hey, thanks for sticking around. So, today we talked with Mark Vande Hei. He’s going to be launching to the international space station later this year or maybe right now, depending on when this podcast gets posted. But Mark is on social media. He’s on twitter @astro_sabot. That’s s-a-b-o-t, and you can follow his journey aboard the international space station as he talks about his day-to-day life and maybe takes some photos from that vantage point 250 miles above the earth. You can also see his journey at NASA.gov/iss. We have updates all the time on what’s going on aboard the international space station. Some of the research studies and experiments that Mark will be taking part of while he’s aboard. On social media, we’re very active. Just go to Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. On Facebook it’s international space station, on twitter it’s @space_station, and on Instagram it’s @iss. We’ll be following Mark throughout his journey and posting pictures of him and some of the things that he’s doing while on that orbiting complex. You can also use the #askNASA on any one of those platforms and submit an idea for the podcast, maybe ask any questions, and we’ll make sure to answer it in a later podcast. This podcast was recorded on may the 4th. That’s right, we recorded two podcasts on may the 4th. May the fourth be with you. Super late. I’m still going to say it. And special thanks to John Stoll, Alex Perryman, Pat Ryan, and John Streeter for making this podcast happen. And thanks again to Mr. Mark Vande Hei for coming on the show. We’ll be back next week.